On Steve and his dad

[delicatale]

(Last call if you want a postcard from LA - Leave me your address here!)

I am watching Warrior - during my commute, so I am about 45 minutes in right now, and it's bad quality but urghl, I am an impatient, terrible person so whatever. And, well, watching this is making me think about Steve's relationship with Papa McGarrett.

Canon, we don't know much about it. We know Jack McGarrett was a cop, and sent his kids away - to protect them, however he did not tell them that when he did it. We also know that Steve and his father didn't speak often.

In my head, I blame Papa McGarrett for most of Steve's issues. In my head, they didn't have a good relationship. I imagine a kid, looking up to his dad and wanting to be just like him, but a kid that waits up for his father to say goodnight to him, only to be disappointed, over and over again. I imagine an empty seat at Thanksgiving, Mommy McGarrett working hard to keep her kids entertained, and give them an actual Thanksgiving dinner. I imagine Jack McGarrett to be a man that loved his kids, and to kiss his son's brow at night, when Steve is asleep, but I also imagine him married to his job, distant, busy.

I imagine Steve growing up into puberty and his teenage years and growing disappointed, full of delusions about family values and fatherly hugs. I imagine him thinking he's not good enough to get his father's attention, his mother dying and his father sending him away the last straw. I imagine Steve throwing himself into military school and the Navy and BUD/S to make himself feel worthwhile, to maybe do something worth of his father's attention. I imagine Steve's hero complex and I-don't-deserve-nice-things issue stems from his relationship with his dad.

And knowing that his father came to all his football games, or called the base to kn ow how he was doing in training won't really change years and years of Steve telling himself his father just couldn't deal with them, that they were too much for him, his own kids.

I wish we knew more about his mother. Knew how she was with them, how she acted with Steve and Mary-Ann. Maybe it'd balance things in my head. As it is, I blame Jack McGarrett.

- feel free to totally disagree with me, as long as you don't just tell me I am full of shit ^_^.

Comments

[kapuahi.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty much with you on Daddy McGarrett. In fact, I don't think I like him.

As well as agreeing with you, I see his parents being very old school. She stays home, does the good wifely thing raises the kids, doesn't complain about Dad being away at work all the time etc, which I think has shaped the both of the kids into such different life directions.

And in my head, Daddy McGarrett might have loved his son and checked on him all the time and went to all his games, but that doesn't mean that spilled over into affection for his boy. I think that Steve spent his first 15 years practically begging for his fathers approval/affection in his studies, his sport, even just in life and being sent away showed him that he didn't get it from him.

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

I agree - I don't see Daddy McGarrett as an affectionate man. Which does not, per se, mean he couldn't show love in another way - my father is not especially affectionate, but I've never doubted, for a second, that he loves me more than anything else, so that's why I called John McGarrett distant. Because there are levels and different ways of showing love, and I just feel like Daddy McGarrett just didn't really know how to show his.

But, yes. Steve, to me, definitely craved his father's appreciation and approval, and never really got it.

steve's dad

[elderwitty]

Have you read Home Improvement? I think you and the authors are on the same page. 31,966 words.

I agree with you. Jack loved his kids, but if you don't tell a kid stuff, they assume the worst. Especially when they get sent away once the other (main) parent is gone. That sends a silent, but loud, message that they are too much to deal with, or not worth dealing with, or less important than whatever else (work) is keeping the remaining parent from parenting them. And why NOT let Steve know that he was going to his games? Where would the harm have been?

He may have done the right thing for his kids' safety (always assuming that the people he was saving them from couldn't find an airport), but he did it the wrong way for their peace of mind. Maybe he was too traumatized at that moment from his wife's death to do the logic, but he should have realized it as time passed.

Re: steve's dad

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

Oh, I have read this fic so many times XD. It's one of my very favourites.

I'm thinking that, all along his wife was still alive, John didn't think he needed to show more, because she was there to give them the love they needed. And sending them away, even if it's to protect them, to me it's the worst thing he could have done to them, refusing them his help when grieving, making them think he can't deal, exactly, that's it - they were too much for him, whatever ~excuse he had to send them away. It's a bit terrible, imo.

[sirona-gs.livejournal.com]

You are not full of shit. It's a great theory, as good as any out there. And I think we can deduce a lot from that episode where Steve talks about his mom's death, the look on his face, the wistful smile. I think Mom McGarrett was a loving, generous woman, who kept her family together as best she could, and once she was gone it all fell apart because she was their glue, with a quietly absent father and two kids who were still far too young to know what they wanted to do with themselves. I think her death broke each and every one of them, and more than any other single circumstance turned them into the people they are today. But I think that she was lovely.

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

I'm sure she was, indeed. I like to think of her as lovely, and yes, I agree, she definitely kept them together. It's obvious that she was the center of the family and it all fell apart when she was killed. And I think because she was a giving, and loving woman, it broke Papa McGarrett even worse when she died, and he realised he couldn't deal with two grieving teenagers. To me it feels like an excuse, sending them away to protect them. I'm not saying he did it consciously, but, he still did it. And I understand why, and I wouldn't blame him for it if he took his kids back. Instead, they turned to non-communication.

[verasteine.livejournal.com]

I don't disagree; I utterly agree. This fandom spends too little time thinking about John McGarrett. My personal head canon is that John was pretty fucked in the head as a father, and this stemmed from before he sent his kids away. Because the things you mention, the football games and calling the base -- Steve didn't know about them. John might have kept tabs on his son, but he didn't tell his son that. Not to mention, early in series 1 John mentions how he told a five year old Steve to be anything but be like him.

I'd love to know more about the mother, too, to see how well she might have counterbalanced John's absences and parenting-by-strict-demands routines. I definitely agree Steve's striving for the best is an attempt at earning his father's approval. Funnily enough, one of the earliest Steve/Mary convos about John reminded me incredibly of the way my sister and I can talk about our parents, so yeah, I think canon agrees with you.

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

I really wish we could have more of the McGarrett family dynamics - coming from outside of Steve's memories, because obviously they're warped and fucked up by loss and the path his life took after his mother died.

I still don't understand why John never told Steve about keeping tabs on him. It doesn't make sense to me, why didn't he want Steve to know he was proud? Didn't he understand that a few words would have balanced Steve so much? Idk. Maybe we could go even further back then and see how John's relationship with his father was.

It's something I'd really to see more of, in the show. Bit sad they seem to think it doesn't matter.

[verasteine.livejournal.com]

It would be interesting to see a different perspective, yes. Steve is not impartial in this regard.

I don't understand it, but it doesn't surprise me as such. John was a very strict father, I think, who didn't know how to express emotion and so rather didn't. John's relationship with his own father was non-existent, as we knew from canon that he died before John was old enough to know him. But there might have been a stepfather?

More, oh yes, please, although the show doesn't seem to be afraid of it, but it's very between the lines. I'm quite intrigued by how much you can tell from the way Joe (old friend of John's) is with Steve and vice versa.

[rlmw23.livejournal.com]

Probably plays in a lot with what Alex himself said about Steve being far too damaged to ever really have a solid relationship with anyone, there not being anything to give.

His mother's early death, and never getting that affection from a father would be a major part of that, alongside the difficulties inherent in being a SEAL and re-adapting to a sort of civilian-ness.

[verasteine.livejournal.com]

I don't follow Alex, so I didn't know that, but yeah, that makes a lot fo sense.

I'm wondering how much is the one and how much the other; as far as Steve's concerned, I've always had the feeling that while being a SEAL has irreparably made sure he can't unsee and unknow the things he learned, it didn't damage him as a person that much. But the father withholding affection and approval? That's the stuff that really screwed him up.

[lou-c.livejournal.com]

I want to know it all! Especially about his mum. Sometimes I am frustrated that we have a buddy buddy cop pseudo-procedural show which has these characters that I want to know more about. Because it isn't the kind of show where we are going to ever know the details of the relationship with steve's family. I actually really want to see if Steve was happy when he was 6 or 10 or on April 18th, 1992 (it was a Saturday. Did he have a game? Did he go surfing?)...

I need to stop thinking!!

Maybe we will find out more if Danny's folks ever visit!! (A girl can dream)

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

These kind of specifics should be in fic ^_^. I honestly don't think this would happen, but I'd definitely like to know more, if only to understand Steve better. It's such a big part of who he is, and yet they skim over like it's not a big deal. It's a bit sad.

[lou-c.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know it won't ever happen in canon. But hey, I'm an NCIS Gal and season 9 and we still haven't seen Tony's house (he could live in a cupboard for all I know).

It is so skimmed over. Do we even know his mum's name for sure? Did White mention it was Jo (I was unsure because that is HIS name...)

I do think that Danny's devotion is a device used to directly oppose/mirror what Steve's experience was. Steve: Sent at least 6 hours flight away by his father. At the time he didn't know why AND his mother had just died. His world as he knew it was gone. Danny: Moved clear across the country so he could be a father. Because without Grace, his world as he knew it was gone. And Steve had known Danny 2 days when he bought a dolphin hotel ticket because he knows how important this is, not just for Danny but for Grace.

It seems kind of simplistic to think that His mum couldn't make up for the lack of paternal nurturing/guidance/overt 'love'. But I know for myself how much it hurts when your dad doesn't tell you he is proud of you. And I'm a girl so... We remember the negatives and the voids for some reason.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I'm really happy to see this. One of the things I really love about the characters is their history and family is a huge part of that for Steve.

It informs so much about him, his issues are about the fact that he isn't aware how dysfunctional his family actually was. It's quite heart breaking to see him discover these things about his dad, seeing how much Joe (as a substitute father) shifts his behaviour due to the history with his father and the Navy.

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

Lots of children don't realise how dysfunctional their families are until confronted with something else. The thing is, Steve seems to refuse to acknowledge it, and I hope really hard that they'll put this into the show, because it'd be fascinating.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Steve's idea of family is... special, no doubt.

Beyond it being fascinating, I always enjoy characters in turmoil.

[aworldinside.livejournal.com]

Nope I think you're pretty much right on track with Steve and John's relationship or lack thereof.

I was also just thinking before about Steve's Mum and how we need to know more about her. That moment in 1.13 where he and Danny are in the car and Steve mentions how the day is mother died made him who he is really gets me.

There is a random mention in 1.13 though (I just rewatched most of the ep) of John reading Sherlock Holmes stories with Mary - which I imagine was nicely plot convenient tbh - but that does make me think there might be another dimension to him. Not sure.

As much as this show is on some level about Steve hunting down Wo Fat for what he's done to his family, I still want more Steve back-story. From his family life, to his time at the Naval Academy ... but then he is my favourite and I'm hardly objective. ;)

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

That's the thing, so much of this show revolves around Wo Fat and Steve wanting revenge, but does his family history really grants it, we have no idea. It probably grants it to him, because it was his family and that is all he needs to know, but we don't know much about his relationship with his parents. We know virtually nothing of his mother.

The thing about the Sherlock Holmes stories, true, I forgot about that. Somehow, when I try to imagine Papa McGarrett reading to his kids before bed, it doesn't compute in my head. Not saying he was a bad father, just - this bit of this episode presents John in a light that doesn't really make sense with the rest of what we know.

[camshaft22.livejournal.com]

I want to comment more in depth about this, but even if John/Jack read to Mary, it doesn't mean he read to Steve. She was the youngest and a girl. It might be a little bit gender dynamics in play here as well as the first one is always where you figure stuff out and maybe he was thinking, I have to make Steve strong and babied Mary a bit. *might be off her rocker*

[powrhug.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with your read on what Steve and Jack's relationship was. In fact I wrote a fic that delved into a lot of the subject matter you bring up.

I wish they'd explore it more because I think that would add more layers to Steve.

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

It would, and yet they gloss over it a lot, which is a shame :(.

And, ugh, I was sure it was John ^_^. But nooooo.

[powrhug.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair, Jack is a knickname for John (not so much now, but back when Jack would have been born), so you're probably right! =D

[http://users.livejournal.com/_thelostcity/]

I'm pretty sure his official name is John (or Jonathan), but that he goes by Jack (or sometimes John).

[cmariad.livejournal.com]

Actually, Steve's Dad's name is BOTH John AND Jack & either/both would be correct in referring to him in canon. I guess you're referring to that in your post?

On his headstone, which we see at the end of ep 104, Lanakila, when Steve & Mary are having the picnic by their Dad's grave, it says "John McGarrett" along with his dates of birth & death (the date of death is the same as the date of the S1 premiere... September 20, 2010); so John is is given name.

His nickname is "Jack", which is a normal nickname for men named John (President John F. Kennedy was also referred to as "Jack", for example). That's also the name Chin--who'd been trained under & partnered with Steve's Dad at HPD, so he'd have a familiarity with him--uses for Steve's Dad in ep 102, Ohana. Chin says something like "Jack McGarrett considered any day Steve McGarrett played at Quarterback a day off" (maybe not a direct quote from the ep, but at least a paraphrase of the line), when Steve expresses surprise at Chin's previous revelation that he & Steve's Dad used to come watch his HS Football games.

[evening-spirit.livejournal.com]

I'd only add to that -- don't know if someone already did in comments, if so, sorry for reiterating -- the yearly excursions to see the petroglyphs. The "I remember the first time I beat my father to the summit". The fact that where Danny and majority of US boys had baseball games with their Dads, Steve had deep sea demolition classes extreme survival trips in Hawaiian mountain range. That's their relationship in a nutshell. :)

In other words I think your analysis is spot-on.

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, there was that. Although they were both athletic and enjoyed it, so it's not necessarily bad, but it's doubtful they did much more than that. Maybe that was were they got along, had something in common - I can't begrudge that really. I just wonder if they had more of a relationship - Jack taught Chin how to spear fish but not Steve, after all...

[http://users.livejournal.com/_thelostcity/]

And we don't know when those yearly excursions to see the petroglyphs stopped, either.

[evening-spirit.livejournal.com]

There's two ways to look at that experience. One is that they had a good time doing it, so fine, but another is -- what if Steve wasn't that strong athletic boy? What if he was a weakling? Would his father still push him to his limits? I'd think, most likely, yes. And then it would be something to begrudge.
It's an interpretation of course, but I think those trips were not for Steve's sake but because John wanted them.

There's certain yearning in Steve's tone when he speaks about "beating his father to the summit". Makes me wonder if he was commended for it, or did he hear something like, "About time".

Oooh, Daddy Issues, how you fascinate me. ;)

[cmariad.livejournal.com]

I think it's interesting you used the term "Daddy Issues" in your post. Steve--of course (I guess)--never used that term in relation to his relationship/non-relationship with his father (at least not yet). But, in 1 of the Deleted Scenes from Nalowale (the ep which has the scene of Steve & Catherine waking up together at the McGarrett house shortly after the start of the ep), Mary says to Catherine, after explaining her own relationship/non-relationship with Papa McGarrett, almost immediately after meeting Catherine for the 1st time, "I guess that explains my 'Daddy Issues'." So at least Mary recognizes she has them, even if her recognition of them was edited out of the ep involved.

[verasteine.livejournal.com]

In defence of Jack, and I don't say that lightly, Chin admitted the spear fishing trips were more about drinking than spearfishing... So it makes some sense he never took his fifteen year old son along on those trips.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_thelostcity/]

I think this analysis is pretty spot on. Additionally, a parent can do some things with their kids (read stories, run up a mountain to see petroglyphs) and still be distant in a way that screws with his kids' perceptions/development. I think it says something that Jack went to Steve's football games but never told him, and I don't think it's a good something. I could see how maybe Jack wanted to let Steve "have that," but when you desperately want your parents to come to and acknowledge this awesome thing you're doing, it hurts a lot when they don't.

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't think he was the best dad. Maybe he tried, in his own way, but we might never know, and that's just a shame.

[springwoof.livejournal.com]

Excellent analysis and discussion.
My yearning is to hear more in canon about Steve's mom--so far, only fanfic has engaged with her much at all IMO. Canon has barely given us any info at all, other than she's dead & Wo Fat likely killed her. What was her name, huh? I'd love to meet an old friend of Steve's mom in canon. Didn't she have any friends or kin?

In my personal canon, Steve's mom came from one of the Old Hawaiian Families with money--it's how a cop family like the McGarrets could afford a home by the beach in Oahu with the high real estate prices. Mom married down when she married Jack (she married for Love!) so her family doesn't have much to do with Jack's offspring...

I'm seeing a tv show trend of Motherless Sons (non-H50 examples off the top of my head: Dexter and SGA's Sheppard), where mom either died when the hero was a child or was otherwise missing/not an influence, allowing the Hero to have all these Daddy Issues. Not that Daddy Issues aren't fun & dramatically interesting, but doesn't anyone have Mommy Issues anymore? Or is it that the Hero can't have them?

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

I agree. I really really want to know more about her, about who she was as a woman and a mother. And mummy issues are good!

[perspi.livejournal.com]

I think this is a fantastic discussion! I don't have a lot to add, except WORD to all of it--I think that Steve's issues are indeed rooted deep in what Daddy did and didn't do, and I see that comment of Alex's that got mentioned above, which makes sense, as Vera said, but then I wonder if Steve would ever BE capable, at some point, of having a solid relationship--and I had to kind of chuckle to myself, because that would require Steve to be in some serious therapy, heh.

And then this whole thread has made me think about (and make progress on) a Tailor!Steve story I've been chewing over, so thank you for that. *hugs*

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

I think Steve in a relationship is always going to be very fucked up, in one way or another, because of these issues. They're so plain, right there under his skin, and they keep him from being a functional human being, imo. So...he has to work on it!

[gottalovev.livejournal.com]

I agree with you that Steve's dad was probably absent even before what happened to his mom. I feel as if lots of cops can get deep into their jobs like that. But it sort of makes no sense that he'd go to the football game and Steve never knew, come on. I mean, my kid knows I'm there, even if it's not big crowds like we've seen in the episode.

Maybe he and Steve didn't get along even early on, which I've seen - personal experience -, so papa!McGarrett would in fact fight with Steve but still go see the games without saying so, because he did love the kid even if it came out all wrong all the time. I can't really see them as being close, or at least not since Steve got older than 10 or so and the attitude came out. Who knows, maybe Jack and Steve's mom didn't have the idyllic relationship and they'd fight and Steve would take her side, trying to protect her.

in other words.. so, Warrior? impressions?

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

High school American football is not something I grew up with, but I've watched FNL and the crowd were always so big in that show, it's possible if Steve is really focused - and doesn't look up for someone in the crowd, he wouldn't know? Idk.

I like that idea, that they didn't necessarily get along so great. It's something I've witnessed first hand - my dad and brother don't really get along, don't see eye to eye, and it's easier for them to fight than with anybody else, even though my dad hates fighting. And, yes, I can see him and Steve's mother having issues, too - this is why I want to know more about her, see in what kind of environment he grew up.

I'm not finished yet, having about half an hour left of it, but, OMG, IT IS SO SAD. I didn't think it was going to be this heartbreaking, seriously, I just. Bottom lip wibble in the Tube, so unattractive. But it's good - it's the kind of movie that grips me, by the topic and by the story of a broken family.

[gottalovev.livejournal.com]

Steve not lookingup and not knowing I buy, with the big crowds, but why would his dad keep it a secret? heck, I dress us with the team colors and all, and make sure to tell kiddo I think he's awesome ;)

We know so little about his mother. Do we even know her name? she's a ghost in more ways than one.

IT IS SAD INDEED. god, heartbreaking all around, really did a number on me. they are all so fucked up. the actors performances are phenomenal IMHO. I don't know if you saw the worst of it being 30 minutes off the end, but I dare anyone not to wibble watching it. I'll buy it when it comes out for sure.

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

I think I'll be in tears before the end. But I'll definitely buy it as well, it pushes all sorts of buttons for me, and it's beautifully done, and yes, the actors, I have no words. I love movies that are raw in this way.

[deepbluemermaid.livejournal.com]

It's funny coming to H50 fandom from SPN fandom, where Sam and Dean's daddy issues are pretty central to the plot and their father's parenting ability is hotly debated by fans (and sometimes between characters on the show). And their dead mother has her own backstory, with flashbacks and an extended family that the boys eventually meet. But of course, it's not a buddy cop show so there's probably more room to explore that stuff.

I'm finding it really cathartic to write an AU where Steve's Mom is still alive - since Jack never left the Navy in this 'verse, she was never killed by Wo Fat - but Jack is dead. And Steve's Mom has a name and a job and a life of her own, and was a formative influence on Steve's post-Navy career choice. It sucks that canon never even gives her a goddamn name, but it's also nice to have so much room to create something new.

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

I've written a story where his mom is alive, too - it's completely different, but I enjoyed toying with the idea. It's really the thing they're lacking in the show.